When does "yes, and" kick in? Is it before we pollute and cause essentially "roadkill" or after we've we've finally awakened to the consequences of our choices? Could "better late than never be replaced with "better never than too late"? Someone said the other day that we've interpreted freedom as our collective choice to kill each other. Covid is a great example. What we are facing today was an almost inevitable consequence of the choices made prior to its spread. Either by design or by negligence the research or its byproducts were going to escape into the world. It was inevitable. We run around arguing masks or no masks in our collective trip to Abilene. Problem solving versus problem prevention... only becomes necessary in the post mortem of failure to be awake to the needed connections before people die..... not after. Yes, and, humanity can progress but not at the expense of one single solitary human life. Can we progress. yes, and being awake to the inevitable consequences of out choices? It goes back to "what choices will I make to today if I believed that my choices actually mattered and that I was choosing for all humanity"? Sorry, but got started and couldn't hold back. Thayer once said that one common human trait was "perversity". It has never seemed more appropriate than in these times.
I’m thinking of the phrase...Who put the quarter in you? 😂 Oh! It was me!
Here’s the thing...often...I don’t think we can foresee the outcomes of our innovations. I choose to believe we often start with the best of intentions. Look at the processed food industry (convenience), the internet (connection), medicine (health). Does our sense of fear, scarcity, over consumption, and failure to take personal responsibility for our choices lead us into trouble?
We certainly head to Abilene with our choices and end up with leaders who pander to what we want and not what serves the best for the most?
I am thrilled by some of the recent programming I’ve come across as it creates awareness without shaming people. It offers hope and illustrates that if we choose to see our part...and work together...there’s a whole lot of possibility.
Is there a difference between our inability to foresee consequences of our choices and unwillingness to even examine. What, if any, is the individual's responsibility? Philip Slater coined the phrase "toilet assumption" way back it early 1970's which describes American propensity to believe that when we flush things down the toilet it doesn't come out the other side. Just because it's difficult to predict consequences doesn't mean we should stick our collective head's in the sand. He, also, said "the unbridled pursuit of freedom and independence at the expense of our inter-dependencies will be the undoing of democracy in America". This is compounded by the tendency of immigrants to move on to escape the problems of the existing community rather than confront them. We as a nation of immigrants by choice(slaves, of course, coming here was not a voluntary act) are adept at moving. One could make the point that we've run out of places to run and hide from who we are or have become. Who will we choose to be? What are the consequences? What are we ignoring or refusing to see or be awake to?
I was going to share this in a response to Michael, but I think it fits better here....
A real eye opener for me was an article I read about the food industry. At some point they became aware that processed food was creating an obesity/diabetes/ health crisis. Several CEOs convened to discuss next steps and one among them refused to play ball...putting shareholders and profit before the health and future of all. This choice I find shameful and yet...I have the ability to understand the pressure leading to the choice. I cannot locate the article I read at the time...but found another that discusses the same topic...
And let me add...as consumers...most of us understand this now? Why do we not take personal responsibility and make better choices? Avoid the middle aisles?
You betcha! In one instance of possible awakening to our harmful ways, it has taken the incineration of over 4 million acres of forest on the west coast. For generations, native peoples in that area practiced controlled burns to ward off wildfires. BLM has prevented those same people from continuing that practice on their own remaining reservations because...? Now, I’ve recently read that forest “managers” want to give the controlled burn methods a try. Only after this year’s wildfires burned the very forests of the native people. Just the tip of our iceberg.
This BLM is the Bureau of Land Management. One central theme of their actions is stealing, yes, public lands (National Forests, wilderness areas under their purview) and granting leases for a pittance for cattle grazing, mining, and logging. Who is “the public” in their decision making? What are the consequences? Next? Proposed uranium mining in the Grand Canyon! Pebble Mine to contaminate and destroy fisheries for wild salmon. Logging in the Tsongas National Forest in Alaska. Oil drilling in the Arctic! Striking down the former Federal standards that progressively raised fuel efficiency standards for US automobiles. Follow the money: in the last example, that action artificially supports demand for oil, the “dinosaur” of our world today. The result? Drill in the Arctic... I could go on.
Was BLM around when the land was "stolen" from the "stewards of the land" natives? Give all the land back to them and start over. It would only be fair wouldn't it?
Does "now" stand alone from the past and the future? Or is it all just "now"? I raise the issue as it illustrates the how different "facts'' get to different to different interpretations of "now". Choices by their very nature involve conflict. The known for each of us is essentially the ground that we stand. Yes, and starts with choices. Choices have consequences. We cannot always predict the consequences unintended or for that matter intended. That does not absolve me of my particular and collectively responsibility as best I can to "do no harm" .
It is not all just "now"...imagine the mayhem that would cause! Of course history leaves a map of actions that have worked and others that have not--a guide. We also need to consider the fruit of our actions. I'd love to eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner...understanding the likely consequences, I eat vegetables, too. haha!
Is our biggest challenge to be aware of the results of our choices and to take responsibility, and act accordingly, when we see we're going off the rails? This is not easy work for individuals or societies, but it is necessary. There are many facets here...but I am thinking of our how our education system teaches us there are right and wrong answers. How we don't leave wiggle room for "I don't know, let's see", and "okay, that failed, let's try something else."
Of course, "passing through" can go both ways. We may leave unintended consequences for others (or ourselves) to deal with and/or clean up. We can also allow learning to pass through us as well, not only about the environment, as we discover links between our actions and their consequences, but also our experiences and wisdom, in all facets of life as well. Hence the power of books, courses, and Netflix series like Connected. Just another form of "passing through".
Yes! This is true at both the individual and group level, neither of which are easy to change. How can we change that? By making it okay to "not know" and to experiment with the understanding we'll often need to tweak or sometimes start over?
One of the things that struck me about the recent debate was that neither "side" can say the other did anything right. All they do is tear each other down. No wonder people are divided.
In particular, I've heard an argument against Biden because he opposed bussing for integration--it is being framed as a racial issue. I have no idea what Biden's actual reasoning was at the time, but IMHO bussing was bad policy...as a sense of community broke down when children were sent across town--possibly to different schools with children from the same neighborhood.
Good intent? Yes, I think so. Did it work...well, I guess that depends on interpretations.
My point is...to use it now as a racial hot button issue seems wrong to me.
Now you’ve pried the lid off Pandora’s box! Good for you. It’s sobering to read how many indigenous peoples possessed a keen understanding of their interconnectedness with their surroundings. And as mankind has made vast “advances” the interconnectedness has suffered. I’m thankful for the efforts of Netflix, right on down to individuals like you, to rekindle the awareness of our place in the great scheme of things! Thanks.
A connection recently posted a photo of land being cleared for homes in Arizona—she said “mansions, really”, for people who own multiple homes. She proposed some human made spaces stand vacant for most of the year. Over consumption to what end?
There are wealthy people who do not over consume—Clark Howard, Warren Buffett? I believe I’ve heard both take responsibility to live modestly.
I too am appreciative of shows like Connected that are creating awareness without shaming. I believe at our core, most of us would make better choices if we were actually aware. Thankful for the creativity of many to encourage “connective” behavior.
When does "yes, and" kick in? Is it before we pollute and cause essentially "roadkill" or after we've we've finally awakened to the consequences of our choices? Could "better late than never be replaced with "better never than too late"? Someone said the other day that we've interpreted freedom as our collective choice to kill each other. Covid is a great example. What we are facing today was an almost inevitable consequence of the choices made prior to its spread. Either by design or by negligence the research or its byproducts were going to escape into the world. It was inevitable. We run around arguing masks or no masks in our collective trip to Abilene. Problem solving versus problem prevention... only becomes necessary in the post mortem of failure to be awake to the needed connections before people die..... not after. Yes, and, humanity can progress but not at the expense of one single solitary human life. Can we progress. yes, and being awake to the inevitable consequences of out choices? It goes back to "what choices will I make to today if I believed that my choices actually mattered and that I was choosing for all humanity"? Sorry, but got started and couldn't hold back. Thayer once said that one common human trait was "perversity". It has never seemed more appropriate than in these times.
I’m thinking of the phrase...Who put the quarter in you? 😂 Oh! It was me!
Here’s the thing...often...I don’t think we can foresee the outcomes of our innovations. I choose to believe we often start with the best of intentions. Look at the processed food industry (convenience), the internet (connection), medicine (health). Does our sense of fear, scarcity, over consumption, and failure to take personal responsibility for our choices lead us into trouble?
We certainly head to Abilene with our choices and end up with leaders who pander to what we want and not what serves the best for the most?
I am thrilled by some of the recent programming I’ve come across as it creates awareness without shaming people. It offers hope and illustrates that if we choose to see our part...and work together...there’s a whole lot of possibility.
Is there a difference between our inability to foresee consequences of our choices and unwillingness to even examine. What, if any, is the individual's responsibility? Philip Slater coined the phrase "toilet assumption" way back it early 1970's which describes American propensity to believe that when we flush things down the toilet it doesn't come out the other side. Just because it's difficult to predict consequences doesn't mean we should stick our collective head's in the sand. He, also, said "the unbridled pursuit of freedom and independence at the expense of our inter-dependencies will be the undoing of democracy in America". This is compounded by the tendency of immigrants to move on to escape the problems of the existing community rather than confront them. We as a nation of immigrants by choice(slaves, of course, coming here was not a voluntary act) are adept at moving. One could make the point that we've run out of places to run and hide from who we are or have become. Who will we choose to be? What are the consequences? What are we ignoring or refusing to see or be awake to?
Put another quarter in or not. Your choice!
I’ve got an entire coin pouch full of quarters!
I was going to share this in a response to Michael, but I think it fits better here....
A real eye opener for me was an article I read about the food industry. At some point they became aware that processed food was creating an obesity/diabetes/ health crisis. Several CEOs convened to discuss next steps and one among them refused to play ball...putting shareholders and profit before the health and future of all. This choice I find shameful and yet...I have the ability to understand the pressure leading to the choice. I cannot locate the article I read at the time...but found another that discusses the same topic...
Linked in next comment...
https://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2013/02/how-processed-food-industry-hooked-us-unhealthful-foods/
And let me add...as consumers...most of us understand this now? Why do we not take personal responsibility and make better choices? Avoid the middle aisles?
You betcha! In one instance of possible awakening to our harmful ways, it has taken the incineration of over 4 million acres of forest on the west coast. For generations, native peoples in that area practiced controlled burns to ward off wildfires. BLM has prevented those same people from continuing that practice on their own remaining reservations because...? Now, I’ve recently read that forest “managers” want to give the controlled burn methods a try. Only after this year’s wildfires burned the very forests of the native people. Just the tip of our iceberg.
BLM? Why would they care about controlled burns on reservations? Am I understanding the acronym correctly? Black Lives Matter?
This BLM is the Bureau of Land Management. One central theme of their actions is stealing, yes, public lands (National Forests, wilderness areas under their purview) and granting leases for a pittance for cattle grazing, mining, and logging. Who is “the public” in their decision making? What are the consequences? Next? Proposed uranium mining in the Grand Canyon! Pebble Mine to contaminate and destroy fisheries for wild salmon. Logging in the Tsongas National Forest in Alaska. Oil drilling in the Arctic! Striking down the former Federal standards that progressively raised fuel efficiency standards for US automobiles. Follow the money: in the last example, that action artificially supports demand for oil, the “dinosaur” of our world today. The result? Drill in the Arctic... I could go on.
Glad I asked! See how words and acronyms can trip us up!
And now we are straying outside my depth of awareness and knowledge. I don't have any basis to stand on to be "for or against".
Was BLM around when the land was "stolen" from the "stewards of the land" natives? Give all the land back to them and start over. It would only be fair wouldn't it?
Hmmm...seems out of line with living in presence and acting within the reality of today?
Does "now" stand alone from the past and the future? Or is it all just "now"? I raise the issue as it illustrates the how different "facts'' get to different to different interpretations of "now". Choices by their very nature involve conflict. The known for each of us is essentially the ground that we stand. Yes, and starts with choices. Choices have consequences. We cannot always predict the consequences unintended or for that matter intended. That does not absolve me of my particular and collectively responsibility as best I can to "do no harm" .
It is not all just "now"...imagine the mayhem that would cause! Of course history leaves a map of actions that have worked and others that have not--a guide. We also need to consider the fruit of our actions. I'd love to eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner...understanding the likely consequences, I eat vegetables, too. haha!
Is our biggest challenge to be aware of the results of our choices and to take responsibility, and act accordingly, when we see we're going off the rails? This is not easy work for individuals or societies, but it is necessary. There are many facets here...but I am thinking of our how our education system teaches us there are right and wrong answers. How we don't leave wiggle room for "I don't know, let's see", and "okay, that failed, let's try something else."
Tossed salad a la mode?
Of course, "passing through" can go both ways. We may leave unintended consequences for others (or ourselves) to deal with and/or clean up. We can also allow learning to pass through us as well, not only about the environment, as we discover links between our actions and their consequences, but also our experiences and wisdom, in all facets of life as well. Hence the power of books, courses, and Netflix series like Connected. Just another form of "passing through".
Oops! for some reason my comment to you Michael showed up twice. I tried to delete one and they both vanished. That's odd.
IIRC--my main points were--Thank you! And, can we be open to change as new information comes in. :)
That squares with your recent remarks on “living your story” while remaining open to new inputs that can revise your story?
Yes! This is true at both the individual and group level, neither of which are easy to change. How can we change that? By making it okay to "not know" and to experiment with the understanding we'll often need to tweak or sometimes start over?
One of the things that struck me about the recent debate was that neither "side" can say the other did anything right. All they do is tear each other down. No wonder people are divided.
In particular, I've heard an argument against Biden because he opposed bussing for integration--it is being framed as a racial issue. I have no idea what Biden's actual reasoning was at the time, but IMHO bussing was bad policy...as a sense of community broke down when children were sent across town--possibly to different schools with children from the same neighborhood.
Good intent? Yes, I think so. Did it work...well, I guess that depends on interpretations.
My point is...to use it now as a racial hot button issue seems wrong to me.
Now you’ve pried the lid off Pandora’s box! Good for you. It’s sobering to read how many indigenous peoples possessed a keen understanding of their interconnectedness with their surroundings. And as mankind has made vast “advances” the interconnectedness has suffered. I’m thankful for the efforts of Netflix, right on down to individuals like you, to rekindle the awareness of our place in the great scheme of things! Thanks.
A connection recently posted a photo of land being cleared for homes in Arizona—she said “mansions, really”, for people who own multiple homes. She proposed some human made spaces stand vacant for most of the year. Over consumption to what end?
There are wealthy people who do not over consume—Clark Howard, Warren Buffett? I believe I’ve heard both take responsibility to live modestly.
I too am appreciative of shows like Connected that are creating awareness without shaming. I believe at our core, most of us would make better choices if we were actually aware. Thankful for the creativity of many to encourage “connective” behavior.